Nothing New Under The Sun?

UPDATE: I was informed by a kind reader (J_Agathokles) that this graphic contained what we might kindly call inaccuracies. Mea Culpa

I was far to quick to use it. It looked kind of clever and so I am guilty of passing on bad information and misinformation through nothing more sinister than laziness. Please see my post on Redaction: Horus Vs Jesus for more information. The graphic has been removed to prevent it spreading further at my hand.

I am leaving the original and will update with a link to the follow up post. The original has comments that I didn’t want to simply delete. Thanks for your understanding.

Original post  follows:

There are lots of folk that think their Jesus story is fresh, different, and worse they think it’s true.

All the details of the Jesus story were already written down for the authors of the New Testament. They just had to gather them together and change a few details to protect the innocent… or something like that. The blogger at “100 Uses For Muesli” shared the graphic below. I unashamedly blagged it to post it here…. for my future reference of course.

Go check out 100 Uses For Muesli – it’s a damned good blog


  1. Absolutely. I can clearly see how it is the same story passed from civilization to civilization. Odin = Adonis, Horus = Jesus There are too many examples of this to name, although I can’t think of them at the moment.

    There is a story in the ancient Sumerian texts that tells the story of Lilith which is remarkably similar to the story of Persephone in Greek mythology. I love reading the different creation stories and myths that people hold onto and pass down. It is the same story retold over and over and over. We inherited the story from the Hindus, although that is not what the history books say.

    Why? What is the importance of the story? I think it has to do with sacred geometry. I know it does, but there is more to the story. I find it fascinating, although not as a guide book on how to conduct oneself or a reason to ostracize others. All of these stories are pieces of a puzzle that bring together a bigger picture of the story of us, all of us humans.

    You will probably tear me up for all of this, but that’s okay. I don’t mind.

    How are you today?

    • I’m not a fan of sacred geometry. That’s more bunkem. There is, however, more to the story of us. We climbed out of the trees and did what we could as best we could and eventually dominated the planet. There is much we don’t know about our past. These stories all take common form… that is a clue as to what was going on. Even when copied the form did not change much so to be believable, such as modern religion is today, it had to make sense to early humans which means they thought just like we do today but had less scientific facts.

      The thoughts of prophecy and magic go all the way back. They are primeval thoughts, borne of all the ignorance and superstition of the stone age human. The followed us into the future and here we are still dealing with them as if they are true though not one person has ever seen credible evidence for any of it.

      We want them to be true, but that explanation is for another post.

      I’m doing well. Been busy and suffering the cold/flu-ish thing, but good. Thank you for asking. I hope you too are well.

      • Have you ever heard of the idea that sound shapes matter? Just curious.

        • There is some substance to this, and it might be part of explaining why the universe is the exact shape that it is given that sound relates to other things, but looking for cause and effect is much like needle and haystack. To conclude the sound shapes matter we must understand HOW it shapes matter. It is fine to hypothesize this, but evidence and fact are needed to state it as fact.

          Sound is a vibration of sonic quality, while all matter (thanks Einstein) is merely a state of energy. This means that on more than one level, sound is energy and matter is energy and sound is matter. That they might interact is neither a surprise nor a qualitative evaluation of the world around us and how we can interact with it, or more importantly to understand it.

          Sound is not heard in space. It does not travel well in a vacuum. It is a transfer of energy through a medium. For us mortals, that medium is water or air. You could put a stereo on the moon, but nobody would be able to hear it. Sound is the name for the effect, not a force.

          Make sense?

          • Yes. Somewhat. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I would be very interested in your take on this. Can I trouble you to watch about six minutes of this? Start at 4:00 and watch till 10:00 and tell me what you think. I find this to be incredible. Forget about God or religion. I am interested in the science behind it.

            • The claim that the substance of the universe is consciousness is not supported. Now, in a Horton Hears A Who kind of way, it’s an interesting hypothesis but without supporting evidence.

              Sound is energy being transferred. That it can cause granules to move about is nothing new or wondrous. The science behind this is that you can transfer energy using sound. That energy has unequal force along its travelling wave and this unequal force reacts to the objects that it comes in contact with causing unequal transfer of energy. This causes the surfaces to vibrate in patterns – a standing wave pattern. This ‘science’ is used in everything that you deal with on a normal day, from the phone you carry to the computer you are typing on. It is not some secret knowledge of the ancients for which there is a conspiracy to keep it from you. It is literally all around you in the technology that you use. The very circuit boards on your computer are designed to minimize standing wave energy to ensure that signals from one part to the next are transmitted with the most efficiency. There are computer programs that cost a lot of money which do this designing effort. Standing waves are used in water parks to create that beach effect. Standing waves are used to minimize noise at airports from airplane jets.

              Watch that video again and this time use a pen and paper and write down every claim that is made without supporting evidence. Every claim of a god without evidence for a god is false. Every claim of ancient knowledge without that evidence is coincidental and false. At the 9:52 mark you get one of several hard sell techniques. Truth does not need a salesman. At the 10:14 mark is a claim that the ancients knew more than they are credited for – and while this might be true, the rest of this is pure bunkem. This is a claim that all we know now was known before but somehow forgotten. You would think that such intelligent people would have passed on the skill of homogenizing milk, or washing your hands to prevent sickness. Nope, not even simple skills got passed on but somehow these folk have latched on to something amazing… which is years behind the technology in the computer you are using to read this reply. There is no need to hide it, this was old technology in the 1940’s.


              They are quite liberally using the term quantum physics. Here’s a fun quote: If you think you know quantum mechanics, you don’t know quantum mechanics — R.Feynman


              This video uses buzzwords and hard sell techniques with no evidence of anything. They are showing you neat tricks with sound and trying to convince you that this is evidence of some ancient knowledge for which there is no reason to think exists. It’s pure bullshit.

              There are things which still need to be explained, but this… this is not part of that honest effort to understand our past. This is not going to teach you anything or add any explanatory power to science. It’s superstition packaged as science and it’s bullshit.

              Sorry to be so brazen with it, but that is what it is and you should understand that. These are the same techniques that door to door salesmen and car sales staff use to get you to buy in right now. When you stop and investigate you’ll find that they have nothing, no evidence, no credence, no nothing. It’s just claims and tricks. Snake oil salesmen.

              • I am not selling every claim made in the video, so calm down. It is the shapes that the pitches are making that are wondrous to me. Perfect pitch of a certain tone creates a pentagram. Do you not find that intriguing?

                I don’t need an outside source to tell me what to believe. I have experienced God while in a pure conscious form. I don’t expect you to believe me, but that is not important to me. Not that I discount your opinion, but I don’t care what anyone thinks of my experiences. I keep them to myself for the most part.

                I am curious though…Do you believe me when I tell you this or do you think I am lying? Do I have any ulterior motive to make this claim? Your beliefs do not bother me in anyway. I would hope my personal experiences do not bother you. I do not need evidence to believe what I myself have experienced. I am not trying to convince you to believe what I believe, but you will never convince me to not trust myself.

                Are you married or do you have a partner? If so, are they also an atheist? Would it bother you if they were not?

                • No, I do not find it intriguing any more than I find etch-a-sketch intriguing. There is enough doubt as to the true nature of reality that personal beliefs are not my place to criticize unless and until a person tries to force them on others. Truth does not need a salesman. I will not try to tell you what will bring peace or the feeling of transcendence to your life. I am against wholesale superstition when it is pushed onto the public at large. When you lay your head on the pillow at night, if superstitious belief gets you into tomorrow, I’m okay with that. I just don’t want my kids and my government representatives to be making decisions based on things that have no proof and every capability of doing harm to society.

                  I get it, I’m one of those angry atheist types. It doesn’t even bother me. I care about truth and reality. You and I are talking and it is important that I do say what I think and why. If I don’t, anyone can come along and claim what they want unchallenged. This is not good for humanity or even our short term future. That video did not say who the ancients were or where the evidence for their existence is. It just makes claims about them… we have fossils and cave paintings. Such magnificently intelligent ancients must have worked pretty effing hard to remove all traces of their existence.

                  I am giving you the run down because you asked. Generally, I don’t care what people believe as long as they are not being caustic to society on the whole. I write a lot in the hope that I will be able to go back and read what I’ve written and in a much more humble way that perhaps someone will like it or learn from it. For the most part, this means that I speak against monotheism, and less so but equally important against this kind of superstitious claptrap. I respect you and believe that what you have experienced was real to you. That does not make it true. Humans have been proven to be really bad eye witnesses. We only need to think of psychopaths and deranged individuals to know that perception is not exactly the be all and end all of evidence.

                  Was it real to you? I’m sure it was. Was it true? I doubt it. Without shared or common experience and testable results, it’s only perception and this has proved over and over again to be wholly unreliable. Hallucinations and mirages are but two examples.

                  Don’t take it personally. I am simply giving the opinion that you asked for.

                  My partner is not an atheist. It does not bother me. My partner would be described as deist with a desire to see knowledge from the ancients or quantum mechanics etc. I continually have to show how these things are not supported and are merely claims of something that there is no evidence for… no matter how good they sound.

                  I became a skeptic because I got tired of being ripped off and lied to.

                  It’s not some new age atheism thing. My grandpa was the same. Both of them. AND I’m from Missouri – the show me state. Samuel Clemmons was from Missouri too. You should read some of his work.

                  • I read Mark Twain as a child. My parents gave me two of his books for my eight or ninth birthday and I read them several times.

                    I respect your beliefs and I understand where you are coming from. I too think belief in unsupported claims are dangerous to a society as a whole. I get it. I understand where you are coming from about perception too. But so much of life is just that, perception. What is true for me will never be true for you, unless we share the experience and even then… I think atheists have done more to show the common thread that unites all of the world religions than most “holy” people. Really though, what does it matter if what I experienced is true or not. If there is more to it than just this, then it will be.

                    • When I was 12, I thought that fundamentalist Christians should take over the government. I KNEW that god existed. I’m the first born of a preacher. I’ve learned a lot since then and it was rare that I learned it the easy way.

                      There is truth in shared experience, testable, repeatable experiment. What remains personal is not that truth. That personal experience is what this video is selling and what monotheism is selling. They are selling you what can only be true for you… it is not testable or falsifiable. If you believe it it is true for you and they encourage you to not test it or think that you cannot. Despite the fact that I agree that we don’t know everything and that there are many thing that need explanation yet, if it is not shared experience, it has no more importance than a nightmare.

                      You are right, if there is more, then it will be no matter what I think. I only have trouble with folk who think that they know for certain and without proof. If you have proof, I’m very open to looking at it. As with any new discovery, I want to know. What you are talking about is not that kind of discovery that I can share and experience exactly as you did. It is not a shared experience and because of this I can give it no more weight than I give to a schizophrenic delusion.

                      I’m not equating the two except in the quality of evidence. In this, I cannot trust either one more than the other.

                      That said, if it gets you from here to breakfast and hurts nobody else, who am I to tell you what to think. It’s your life, not mine. I certainly don’t want anyone else telling me what I am supposed to believe.. right? The difference is that I’m not harming people. Okay, I’m not perfect and I have my moments, but I’m not trying to tell people what to believe, only what I think is caustic to society on the whole. It gets a bit gritty in the details and day to day workings, but that is the basics.

      • I just got over the flu myself, so yeah, yuck. Theraflu works well.

  2. This is the problem with people and religion. It’s like you said, most people suck. They just do. Hell, I suck a lot of the time too; I’ll admit it. But the slaughter house cows want a reason to be a good person. They need to be bribed into it. They can’t just say fuck it. Maybe there is an after life, maybe there isn’t, but that isn’t why I should act like a decent human being. I should try to be a somewhat humble and kind human being, just because that is the best way to go about life. They needed a reason. They couldn’t do it, “just cause”. Just cause it’s the right thing to do. So some of the wall flowers got together and made up a story to tell them why they should act right. And what do the cows do with the story? They use it to better themselves or die trying, because even kindness costs something to them.

    Maybe what I experienced was just a hallucination. Maybe it was a psychotic breakdown. Maybe it was my own mind projecting my inner beliefs back to me to reaffirm to myself what I already believe anyway. I have thought of all of those things and I don’t reject them. But I don’t reject the experience either.

    I am more okay with people like you than I am with most Christians. Have you seen Red State? Those people are out there. Fuck ’em. I am okay with the skeptics. I am skeptical too, but I still hold out for the impossible. I like to be shocked and awed.

    • Are you sitting down? good. It gets bumpy now.
      Your brain does a lot of things, thinking is just one of them. In fact, thinking in the way that you know it is not what it does. When you experience thinking, your brain is doing hundreds of other things. You don’t control your breathing (mostly) or your heartbeat or when you need to go to the bathroom. The you that you think is you is only a small part of the brain in your skull.

      It is a machine, made of meat. Part of it is able to contemplate what the rest of it is doing. It is self aware. Without that self awareness, it is no different than a flat worm. Just some circuitry to keep the muscles going and find food etc. more or less.

      We endlessly try to figure out the world, find the cause and effect when there really is no reason to think that the universe needs such. We need it. The universe does not. If we stop and think about this, what we perceive is really not what we thought it was. If there is no need for a cause, and no reason behind any explanation… life just is. When we see that, all this other stuff becomes moot. We need to examine the reasons that we want a purpose or meaning to life. When we do that, it is simple to see that we need it, the universe does not. We’re completely over thinking this thing. 😉

      • Part of the experience was being in the presence of God or at least that is what I perceived, but when I started to “come back to myself” I did not immediately sense my surrounding as I normally do. I “hovered” over my body the way many people outside of me have described during near death experiences or during operations. Now perhaps this is something built into the brain to calm “the ghost in the machine” when the brain perceives death is near…I have considered this too. During that part of the experience, the hovering part, I was struck by how much everything we do is to meet some need of the body, just like flatworms. Our every waking thought (just about) is devoted to being flatworms. Once we are free from the physical, then what? And why not think about such things? We are thinking human beings. How many people have spent their lives thinking about the impossible without ever seeing it realized in their own lifetime, but in the end they were right. People who pondered magnetism or electricity or other such “magical ideas”. Surely those things seemed supernatural to most at one time. Just because it hasn’t been proven yet, doesn’t mean it won’t be. Doesn’t mean it will either. But if there were more people like me in the world, believers with a live and let live attitude, what would that hurt?

        • Live and let live does not hurt anything. I have polytheist readers, monotheist readers, deist readers… I do not hate but I have very low tolerance for those that are caustic to society. The truth is that we do not know everything. Anything might be right. I’m certain of only one thing – every explanation that we’ve heard so far is without credible evidence except for the idea that there is no god, no meaning, no purpose. These things need no credible evidence and that is exactly what we have. To believe more than there is credible evidence for is wishful thinking and there are many cases of people doing just that with great success: Einstein, Wright brothers, Curie, Edison and on and on. The thing about these people though is that they then devised a way to test and replicate their ideas. Without that shared experience, it is not real. That is the hard limit on this stuff. Can it be tested and shared and falsified? This is how we know what what is in our perception is real… it is shared by others. Perhaps we are all delusional about gravity or electricity… but it doesn’t seem all that likely if you get where I’m going.

          Because you want to believe it does not make it true. Because you can’t prove it does not make it false in that moment. What all of us know as true are things that are shared experience and testable and falsifiable things. This is science, and it’s the best method that man has ever devised to figure out what is true. The question of what is true has beleaguered humans for the entirety of our existence. Science is the best method we have found. It is the quickest way to get others to believe you because it works. It’s testable. It’s repeatable. If science says my device works, people on the other side of the planet can test it and see for themselves that it does. This is not so with perceptions and personal experience. Nobody can say your experience is absolutely not true… they can only say that if it cannot be shared and tested, it is an opinion and nothing more.

          My ‘opinion’ requires nothing more than a person stop believing in what has no credible evidence. I stopped believing in the incredible.

          • Do you believe in love?

            • That is much like asking if I believe in the color red. Love is an emotional state. Do people experience that? yes. Is it some thing or entity on its own? no. It is also like asking if I believe in hate. Think about that for a minute.

              • Love and hate will move a human being to do many things that the color red will not.

                I don’t think of God as an entity; I think of God as a force of energy. My experience with God was a feeling of pure bliss and love and ecstasy. It was an orgasm infinitely multiplied. When I think of love, I think of God. Love cannot be tested or falsified, but it is an experience shared by so many human beings. Again, I am not trying to argue you down, but just because something does not fit into a box, doesn’t mean it should be discounted altogether.(IMO)

                • You have a point, sort of, you are talking about subjective feelings. How do you know that the feeling of love for you is the same for all other people? Is your orgasmic feeling the same that all other people feel? These things are immensely subjective. Even if everyone claims to feel the sense of transcendence, does that mean the experience is the same for everyone? Everyone experiences a beautiful sunset or sunrise – is it the same for everyone? Is it testable? Is it measurable? I posit that it is completely subjective. Art is a place where we can see this kind of subjectivity in action – what is beautiful to you is not necessarily beautiful to me or anyone else. Your experience, though other people have similar is not the exact same as others. It is subjective. If it is subjective it cannot be called ‘truth’ because it is not true for all people in all places at all times.

                  You define god differently than religions define god and expect that this definition is true. Both of them are without credible evidence. I do discount it until it is some experience that I can share and it be the exact same as what you experience.

                  No matter how real it seems to you, it is not shared. It is not real in any meaningful way to the rest of us. It is not credible. You have no evidence other than your personal experience to think as you do. I don’t even have that much. How can we call that truth?

  3. “You have a point, sort of…” Ha! YES! I knew if I kept babbling away… lol 😉

    “Is your orgasmic feeling the same that all other people feel?” I am told I cum like a freight train. Any woman that has seen me cum has mentioned the “unfairness of it”.

    “Even if everyone claims to feel the sense of transcendence, does that mean the experience is the same for everyone?” I have said before that I doubt anyone can experience my truth as I have experienced it, because it is purely based on my own perception and yes, perception is 100% subjective.

    To quote someone I respect, “…so many others only know about gossip and trying to figure out if they are like other people and if other people are like them rather than simply be themselves…. different.”

    I am perfectly fine with my truth being personal to me. I am perfectly fine being different in that regard. I don’t expect or necessarily want the world to experience my truth the way I experience it. It’s ok if it is only true for me. It is still truth…to me at least.

    The thing is, I am not trying to beat anyone over the head with my truth. I am not trying to convert or convince or alienate or elevate myself. It happened and it happened to me. It is special to me. That’s all. That’s enough, for me. I don’t even expect other people to believe me. I know it makes me sound crazy. I can deal with sounding crazy.

    I guess for me I need more than what I see in front of me. Reality can be rather depressing some days. Sometimes my belief keeps me going when nothing else does.

  4. And in that summary, you have summed up much the way I feel about life except that I don’t think it was god. I know that my experience is subjective and I’m okay with that. I don’t need meaning or purpose or a babysitter. I’m here. I am. I’m experiencing. If there is more, it will come, but if not, then just living is enough. What a wonderful amusement park this life is. What a wonderful world our brains create for us. I am and I am happy with that. I don’t need a cause or a god. If there is a god and a next life and that god is not happy with how I lived this one… that god should have been a bit more present in my life. I’ve had to live this one on my own… had to find contentment and happiness on my own… had to define good and bad on my own. If there is a god and it is upset with me then I absolutely do not care to see that god continue to exist.

    We are not so different. I just understand that it is all me doing this.

  5. The conversation has been most delightful and I do mean that. It is getting late though, so I will bid you good night.

    Sweet dreams.

    • J_Agathokles
    • January 15th, 2013

    Actually that picture is TOTAL bullshit.

    – Isis was not a virgin.
    – There was no star.
    – Horus wasn’t taken to Egypt.
    – Typhon is a figure from Hellenic mythology, Horus was hidden from his uncle Seth.
    – Horus was not baptised at all.
    – Horus did not have 12 disciples.
    – There is no El-Azur-Us at all in Egyptian mythology.
    – Almost all those tiles for Horus are false.
    – Horus was NEVER crucified, he NEVER died, and consequently was NEVER resurrected. The only resurrection in his mythology is that of his father Osiris who was cut into pieces by his brother Seth.
    *for the other points I myself know too little in detail of his myths to discredit, but they are most likely false as well, since all the rest certainly is.

    To round up, that picture is a PATHETIC attempt to discredit Christianity by comparing Jesus to Horus, while having not even the slightest idea at all about Egyptian mythology and religion. This is deeply insulting to Horus and to Kemetic polytheists worldwide.

    • doh, teh Google is not being overly helpful to me. Do you have any links to the information that would support this. I’ll do another post with corrections.

        • J_Agathokles
        • January 15th, 2013

        Check the references at the bottom, they should help you find what you need. You can also just go to your local library and find a book on Egyptian myths.

    • I’m not a mythology expert so rely on what I read and tend to not trust any single source. There are many people who seem rather confused on this issue of comparison between Horus and Jesus. Any links you have would be put to good use here on this blog.

        • J_Agathokles
        • January 15th, 2013

        I also sent a link to this post to a Kemetic friend of mine, asking whether he knows any good sites on the subject.

        • Thank you for your effort. I’ve updated the post with a redaction and am working on the follow up post. I’ll use any information that you’ve got and any that I can find. I appreciate you keeping me honest.

            • J_Agathokles
            • January 15th, 2013

            Oh don’t think too much of it. This kind of stuff just ticks me off… It’s one thing to point out “pagan” origins of certain elements of Christianity, but quite another to just make stuff up like the picture does.

            I’ve seen the same done with Dionysos and host of other deities from various cultures… It’s just very unnerving to see such nonsense propagated. Both from a religious point of view, as me being a history and archaeology geek 😛

            • Well, the best way to undo that kind of thing is post about it and give correct information. It might take me most of the day… but it needs to be done

                • J_Agathokles
                • January 15th, 2013

                Here’s the first batch of stuff my friend has come up with:

                If you scroll down, you’ll see the part that mentions replacing Osiris’ penis and conceiving Horus in a non-virginal way.
                This is the apologetics site. I am reading it, and the Egyptian stuff is spot-on. A look at the sources sited throughout and listed below shows why. The scholarly sources include books I’d recommend, and some that I have.

                He also says that most stuff he reads is from books rather then websites, as the “egyptomania” across our society does make them an easy target for “fluffy” stuff, especially eclectic neopagan fluff.

                • J_Agathokles
                • January 15th, 2013

                And more:
                This article also looks good,and cites lot of good sources. It also deals with Horus, for obvious reasons.

  6. Yes, as they partake of the same superstitious milieu, those pagan religions and Christ= insanity would have elements in common without borrowing from each other And they are all unique, so that Yeshua is no more unique than the others.
    Yeshua, as his writers describe him, was a narcissistic megalomaniac, another god-man, miracle monger and cult leader, a man of his times, producing nothing original. Why, his reveling in Hell came from the Parsee Rump [ Zoroastrianism].
    What rational persons would want a relationship with him or Yahweh or Allah?
    Moses’ Folly [ no Moses existed], Muhammad’s Fits, Smiths’ Fraud, the Buddha Wrong Path, the Hindu Illusion, the Dao No Way and the White Black Magic are my way of mocking religions.
    Lamberth’s reduced animism = theism Is just that, and without supernatural intent, all religions are animistic.

    • I tend to agree with you save for a few minor points, which may not disagree with you in the end.

      To say that a monotheistic religion is animistic would be unfair to animists. Truly animistic belief would, I think, would not like the god of Abraham or its followers much at all, being two vastly different kinds of people in character.

      The lack of originality in the religious cults can tell us something, We think of this as the ‘now’ or ‘me’ generation. Even 10000 years ago humans wanted certainty and they wanted it now. They were not willing to wait for investigations or science. It seems that much of their action was driven by the thought that everything must have a cause and that cause must be readily identifiable… like now. “I don’t know” was not an acceptable answer. So it was that anyone that came along with a little bit better explanation of things was the new ‘right’ . Perhaps that is one thing, a good thing, that we have learned in the span of our species’ existence.

      There are many things which have changed the world for the simple act of them being invented: commercial electricity, heavier than air flight, computer, telescope, Internet…. lots of things have changed the world irreparably but religion was not one of them. Religion is an idea that has morphed over time serving only to assure the lazy and the certain and create motive for war. Science has taken all of its explanatory power and taught us that ‘I don’t know’ is actually a good answer.

  7. Reblogged this on Leucippus Updated.

  8. Haughty John Haught finds that faith is the overwhelming of our entire being with Him, and Alister Earl McGrath finds that theists first find evidence for Him, and then use faith as certitude, but as you note, certitude is out of the question, and both in the end use faith as a means of self- brainwashing to keep on believing! So what is the ultimate difference betwixt blind faith and theirs? Well, they can accept scientific findings, except for its finding no supernatural intent and no Virgin birth, Resurrection, no slitting of the Moon and no Muhammad on a horse ascending to the heavens!
    ” Faith doth that to people.” Logic is the bane of theists.” Fr.Griggs
    All those theistic begged questions, special pleading , the arguments from personal incredulity and from ignorance that underlie other of their arguments confirm that!
    I’ll continue to try to get others to subscribe to this blog.
    Those blogs listed previously lead to more of mine and others’.I also have some at and
    Retirement to real passion fructifies as fun.

    • I really appreciate the links and subscription and comments. I’m still reading your blog links. I think that we agree almost completely. I look forward to more of your comments.

  1. January 15th, 2013

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