Here Is A Prophecy For You…

It always cofounds me. Believers in the god of Abraham will tell you they have free will but then turn around and tell you the end times are already decided, what will happen to satan and yhwh as well as what they will do. This is not free will for if even the deity is predestined to perform certain acts then the souls of all who hope to enter heaven have been predestined to go to either heaven or hell and not one bit of arguing or complaining will change it. From this we can determine that prayer and worship are useless…

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  1. How is it so unfathomable? Afterall, God is the most powerful & you are talking about apples and oranges. Man does have free will; however, if God wants you to do something…you will do it or suffer the consequences. Satan was an angel, not a man. It is destined by God that certain things happen. With this in mind, some will turn to God, others will not, based upon their Freewill choice.

    • Thanks for commenting Brother Murf.

      You said “Man does have free will; however, if God wants you to do something…you will do it or suffer the consequences.” which can be translated to you have free will if god wants you to have it… and that is not free will.

      If yhwh and satan are one and the same, can you believe what is written in the book? Prove they are not one and the same then….

      It is a terrible amount of conceit to say that existence was created for your benefit and then justify it by determining what your creator deity can and cannot do.

      • Consider a parent rearing a child who is stubborn. The child chooses a path, the parent corrects that path through chastisement & corporal punishment; God does the same in a differing fashion. The child can stay on the same path or change paths at the child’s choice. You still have the choice, but you must decide if your choice is the right one.

        YHWH and Satan are different. Satan was created and was one of, if not, the greatest angels who got a bit uppity. Regardless, the bible can be believed, IMO & in faith, despite controversies about it. Proving them to be different or the same is fool hearty task. Prove one way or the other is irrelevant. There are those who simply choose to believe & others do not. Proof would come from the bible (Isaiah, Job, Revelation, etc) which you apparently take no stock in. So proving one way or the other is moot, first one needs is belief & faith.

        I don’t say what my creator can and cannot do, God alone dictates that. God can do all things. Not saying I have the bravado to say I understand all things, as I do not. We could be an experiment in a Petri dish for all I know, that is how powerful God is. I am not saying I disbelieve in Big Bang theory, as I believe that is something God could use. But I do not believe that we came from the random smashing of ions, atoms, etc and the random smattering of pond scum and evolved from there either, but there was some grand design by some intelligence. It is almost as conceited to think one was not created by intelligence greater than one’s self.

        • Do you understand why the parent analogy is the worst you can use? Your god set temptation in the garden, threatened to kill his children (lied) and when they did fall into the temptation planted there to trip them up, your god banished them to lifetime hardship and damned all their children to hell. ALL of them, not just one or two generations, but ALL of them. This is not child rearing, it’s child abuse.

          You cannot prove that YHWH and the satan are different. All you know of either is from a book that you can’t prove wasn’t written / inspired by the satan. If he is truly up to the task that mankind has set for him, one of the satan’s greatest works would be holy texts and religions. If god is possible, so is this situation. Go on, prove me wrong.

          Then you follow up by saying that only the bible is proof AND that you have to believe and have faith before there is proof. Circular logic much?

          Either you can say or you can’t… if you can’t say what your god can do then you can’t know that your god “can do all things.” Make up your mind. You are certain that your god is all powerful but can’t explain why he needs your help to spread the word that he is real. hmmmm

          You say you can’t understand all things but you’re certain there was a creator for this universe we know. Further you state that it’s because you can’t fathom any other way for the world to exist as it does. This is the argument from ignorance. Just because you don’t know does not mean god did it.

          • So, sorry for the delay of this answer. Christmas is coming and the busy season at work…I don’t do 14 hour days very well and get on-line sporadically. Again, sorry, meant to do this the very next day.

            We will have to agree to disagree on the parent analogy. Temptation is all around us, is everything placed before us as a temptation at God’s will…perhaps, perhaps not. Temptation to one is strength to another. It is all a matter of will power on the behalf of the individual. It was not a temptation UNTIL the serpent raised the issue to Adam & Eve, all was good up until that point…we are all tested in many ways on a daily basis. This failure on behalf of man always comes with consequences, banishment in this case. You say these temptations are there to trip them up, I say they were there to raise awareness of their weaknesses and to be used as a “teaching moment.” In the infamous words of Sigmund Freud, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”, everything else is a matter of perception and personal interpretation. You fail to realize, based upon assumption on my part and inference on your part…God promised us a life, not a perfect and easy life. Isn’t temptation used daily to test trustworthiness? Value as an employee? Value as a member of society? Temptation is used as a training tool. Even in high school and college are we not tempted to not study for the big test? But we did it in order to pass the test and move on. Quite honestly, I don’t really it would have mattered what example I used…you would have seen it as the worst possible example. (Been through too many of these discussions to not see that one coming.)

            I neither need to, nor have to, prove you wrong…that is not my purpose here. I am simply professing the hope of promise in my life and answering your implied question(s). Besides it is a foolish task to prove someone wrong who is steadfast in their beliefs, besides you make more enemies that way! It is no more so easy for you to disprove God & Satan as one, as it is for me to prove God & Satan are two. Both of us can cite personal beliefs, circumstantial evidence, but you and I would remain at a stalemate…pretty simple. I believe in the bible as it is in existence and is also a historic document. You either believe it or you do not, a personal choice – a gift from God or a Natural Right…you choose. I don’t just see the bible as proof of my position, as there are so many other things that can be witnessed to in everyday life, things such as:
            -the perfect synchronization of the universe, solar system, right down to each and every atom working in harmony;
            -the breath of life within me, you, and those around us;
            -the simplicity of a flower in bloom;
            -a baby’s birth or a baby’s laughter;
            -the seas, the deserts, the forests, the air, the ground below, space and the other planets, etc.;
            These are examples, in my opinion, proof positive that we are not created by a seismic cacophony of chaotic atom smashing randomly creating life out of pure chance. And no I do not believe this to be circular logic. I chose my beliefs with research, study, reading, and yes through prayer. I jumped in with both feet forward and both eyes wide open! Most within the realm of Christianity believe their way is the only way, any variation is pure heresy in their eyes and you are straight off to HELL. I do not hold to that belief…we just do the talking, God either moves you or you choose not to be moved. You may be nudged but not forced. The ultimate destiny of man, or his predestined en, of the species of man is far and away different from the topic of freewill of man. Man can change his individual destiny by a simple decision. However, the ultimate destiny of man is determined by the Creator, and in my opinion, is destined to be destroyed through self-destructive attitudes contained by him. Man is his own worst enemy with the evil one enticing his evil desires.

            The use of man to spread the Word to his fellow man is simply a task for man to accomplish as a good act of stewardship. Every man, each individual, chooses to believe what he desires. I chose to believe in the hope provided by the One true God who grants me life and a multitude of other blessings daily. You chose to not believe…just as simple as that! Each man makes his own choice. What is it to me if you choose not to believe? I am simply another who has crossed paths with you to speak of the hope I possess in my God, my Creator. I am saddened, as I hope everyone would hold this hope I have near and dear to their hearts; but ultimately, the decision to believe falls upon you. In the grander scheme of things if I die believing what I believe and what you believe happens to be true – both of us would be alright, but have either of us lost out on anything? What happens if you believe as you do and what I believe happens to be true? Have either of us lost out on anything? hmmmmm…

            You say this is an argument from ignorance, hmmmmm… That is quite an assumption on your part, don’t you think? I believe in something far greater than myself, yet you can neither prove the existence of nor the absence of, a Creator, or a God, excepting in your mind or realm. Meaning, you can no more prove God didn’t accomplish all things any more than I could prove the antithesis – this is not ignorance, but rather understanding based upon reason, it is neither good nor bad but it is what it is. Also, in my opinion, it is choice made by freewill. I believe there was an impetus, a beginning. Science dictates that there is an initial causing action in all things. The Big Bang did not happen by itself, there was an initial causing action. So, what got us to the here and now? Was it due to a Creator or by shear Chance? Is your life hindered by my beliefs? I can assure you that your not believing in the hope I hold does not shave a moment off of my life. Does my faith affect your life in any way? Perhaps, you lost some time with the answering, or debating, your side of the issue, eh?

            And, YES, I do believe God can do all things. Why does God need man’s help for anything? HE DOESN’T! God doesn’t need man, but man needs God. Although, as in Greek mythology, perhaps the gods need man to believe in them in order to exist…hmmmmm… I claim my existence to be a gift from an All-Powerful Creator and hence all that I can do are unalienable rights that cannot be abrogated nor be revoked by anyone other than God. You, on the other hand, all you can do are Natural Rights based upon the fact that you can live and breath.

            Of course I cannot understand all things concerning God. After all, God is spirit and supernatural, hence how can one fully understand the spiritual and the supernatural? That is the nature of Agnosticism that we cannot explain all things, but can believe in something greater than ourselves. Therefore, I am a Christian-Agnostic because my understanding comes from the bible; despite the bible being in purely human terms that man can understand. Although, throughout the bible there are terms which explain and infer supernatural & spiritual:
            -the many instances of healing
            -the raising of Lazarus from the dead
            -the resurrection
            -the parting of the Dead Sea
            -the plagues of Egypt
            -the Pillar of Fire
            -Creation
            -the sun standing still in the sky
            Christians take these by faith, as they can neither be proven nor disproven. Although, some have been referred to in ancient texts (Babylonian, Syrian, Greek, Chinese, etc). Faith and belief, though attributed to religion & spirituality, is also a personal and individual choice (freewill). Simply believing and having faith in one’s abilities to accomplish something and attributing it’s accomplishment to a Higher Power – how is that a bad thing? It is a well established matter both studies and casual observation that the hope, belief, & faith aids the human mind to accomplish those things, thus enabling individuals to push beyond the barriers that were in your path. Is it God? Or is it the great random chaos? Neither of us can prove one way or the other to another individual – let alone to the satisfaction of the other. Man is simply a witness to his fellow man as to the reason he holds his hope in life everlasting. We carry our faith and beliefs for a lifetime. The single greatest point of failure in anything is the weakest link. Man is God’s weakest link and yet man is God’s greatest creation…in my humble opinion!

            • Brother Murph,

              No worries on the delay, it’s a busy time of the year.

              You can think that I’m firm in my understanding of the world and would not change but you’d be wrong. To change I need evidence that my current understanding is wrong or incomplete.

              You talk of temptation as if it is a bad thing. It’s generally called curiosity until it reaches a point that involves danger or wrong, then we call it temptation.

              I’m not sure how you get that the tree of knowledge or good/evil is there to raise awareness since awareness is what happened when they ate from the tree. You then seem to call damning all humanity to hell as a teaching moment. You really aren’t so good with the parenting/tutor thing. Temptation is not used to test trustworthiness. If you think that then you need to look at how the world works a bit closer. If your employer places temptations in front of you to test your trustworthiness you have a truly vile employer. There is generally no reward for not stealing, only punishment for violating the trust of another. If you went around ‘testing’ people’s trustworthiness all the time you wouldn’t have many friends.

              Arguing that the fact of existence proves the existence of a god is completely unsupportable. The natural laws explain how and why the universe is the way we find it. No god was necessary. Your statement about atoms working in harmony begs the question of what kind of harmony creates tsunamis that kill tens of thousands? Earthquakes? Floods?

              Did your research include cosmology? Biology? Particle physics?

              If man is his own worst enemy, why did it take a talking snake to slip past the all knowing view of your god to get man to eat from the tree?

              An argument from ignorance can go like this: I don’t know how the universe began so a god must have done it.

              I doubt it will be useful, but how do you know that your god is the one true god?

              Your comments about belief and dying is Pascal’s wager and using belief in god as eternity insurance is not what is written in the book. It’s disingenuous and hardly the stuff of true belief. The problems with Pascal’s wager are too many to list in a reply… google for it.

              “Does my faith affect your life in any way?” Why yes it does. It is believers who want to thrust their morals and belief on others, including me, that worries me most in this life. Your faith and that of others fights logic and reason tooth and nail in the public sphere. What is it to you if people get abortions or have same sex marriages? Believers are working hard to oppress and deny many other groups. They are working hard to force their beliefs on others. By definition you are part of such groups trying to force their beliefs on others.

              “”I claim my existence to be a gift from an All-Powerful Creator and hence all that I can do are unalienable rights that cannot be abrogated nor be revoked by anyone other than God.””
              You have heard of the law, right. Any rights you claim which are not permitted under the law can/will be taken from you or denied to you.

              As a citizen I am entitled to the rights granted me by the law of my country. These laws being formed by the people of the country, in agreement. I am granted these rights at birth whereas your god condemns me at birth if not before.

              We have no credible evidence to support even thinking that the spirit or supernatural worlds exist.

              I’m going to assume that you don’t know that Jewish scholars admit that the story of Moses and the exodus are bogus, just history fairy tales. You should read up on that. Yes, it’s easy to find on Google.

              “”Simply believing and having faith in one’s abilities to accomplish something and attributing it’s accomplishment to a Higher Power – how is that a bad thing?””
              It permits and promotes the belief that there are invisible beings interfering in our lives and leads to people thinking they have divine right so that any amount of evil they perpetrate is okay becaues god tells them to do it. Just ask Joshua. All bigotry and hate against homosexuals we see today is generated by religion and spews from churchs and the mouths of believers because they have divine edict from a book. Let your god come down and set things right, how about it? Yeah, I know all the excuses why a supposed omnipotent being won’t do the right thing… and none of them make any sense.

              The power of positive thinking and the placebo effect are well documented. Just because you wrap it in religion does not mean a god was involved. No god is needed for these things.

              You opt for religious explanation instead of looking at the science, the facts, the knowledge gained by humans over thousands of years. You would not desire to live in a world dominated by those that believe in a god that you do not believe in. That is the life I an others live every time your blessed faith pushes laws in favor of your faith.

              If you wanted to show me where my understanding is wrong you would have to understand the facts as we know them. You don’t seem to eager to learn them.

              • Believe it or not, I truly believe everyone ( to a degree) are hunkered down in their beliefs. Some not as strongly as others. Most people do not even know what kind of proof they want or need to change. I was born a Roman Catholic, non-practicing for a time, non-believer for a time, tried TM, looked into astrology, born again into the Pentecostal faith, and on and on it goes. I claim Christianity because I am comfortable with its tenets and because it is a reasonable explanation of God in my life.

                I did not imply, you inferred, “temptation” to be evil. My examples and implications were they are used as a training tool. Temptation is neither good nor bad excepting in the mind of the person considering their fate under such temptation.

                The tree was there simply to ensure man obeyed God’s one simple command…do not eat from the Tree of Life or you will surely die. Man didn’t study for that test because he miserably failed. All mankind was kicked out of the Garden of Eden and condemned to a lifetime of suffering, but there was hope. It was through sacrifice and tithing that man gained God’s favor once again. Then the foretold Savior, Messiah, or the Christ was born…Jesus. He was man’s final sacrifice, a gift from God and his one and only Son. He paid the debt of all our sins and gave us access to God once again. We are no longer condemned from birth, but we are judged upon what we think and do from the point of manhood on. I agree with you on the testing issue, but I work for a government entity and therefore they test all of the time…yeah pretty hateful if you ask me.

                You say the “natural laws explain how and why the universe is the way we find it. No god was necessary” but I would differ with you on that because you looked over that first initial event, that first causal action, where did it come from? I do not argue existence proves existence, but rather existence is evidence, circumstantial or hard…you choose. Tsunamis and earthquakes are natural occurrences. Hence, they are atoms moving in perfect harmony under specific circumstances. Why do people dare to build homes on fault lines? That is an endeavor of folly and foolishness!

                My search for the All-Powerful Being, the One True God, The All Mighty, the Creator of the Universe spanned a great number of things. Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe my beliefs or any one religion has all of the answers. I believe the answers to life are spewed out in front of us all and as we are ready for the answer the question will pop at the right time.

                Heck, it could have been Sponge Bob that spoke to Eve! Would you then question Sponge Bob? lol God could have used another animal, a piece of fruit, a tree, or a bush…I would suggest you ask God.

                I agree with you of your defined belief of an argument of ignorance; however, all of the evidence out there that I am aware of and have either studied, read, skimmed, or even discussed with other, IMO, my God fits and answers the questions, not all of the question that are out there, but all the questions that I have.

                You asked, “how do you know that your god is the one true god?” Though, this may not be helpful to you, but I believe God to be both my Creator and Redeemer. God created all things (mankind, the skies, the ground beneath me, the air I breath, etc.) God forgives my trespasses and aims me in the right direction to forgive those who have trespassed me. Whether I like it or not I am shown the error of my ways. At the end of my days God will take my spirit while my body goes back to the dust of the ground.

                I believe that man’s spirit is that part of God in us all. That is what makes us individually different from all others and yet is that image of God we are created in. I will look up Pascal’s wager, though I am not saying there aren’t certain problems in the bible either. There are some contradictions; however, they do not detract from the whole message therein.

                My beliefs are not doing those things, but people who do not understand the message of the Bible. They are probably the same types who would be members of the adjudicating class of the Spanish Inquisition…Claim JESUS, Quick put him to dead before he backslides! No, that is not the love of God portrayed in the bible. No different than the fundamentalist Islamists, they are basically a peaceful people! It did not help with the Crusades either, but the Muslims were the most humane people during those wars. It is nothing to me, but I am obligated to pass on the message of life and promise. Of course, I part ways with many in the mainstream in this respect…God gave us rights to do all that we are pleased to do provided we do not hinder anyone from accomplishing their God given rights. I am against abortion, but I do not have the right to mandate someone do or not do something to their body. I am against same sex marriages; however, God gave us the right to do as we are pleased to do provided we do not hinder anyone from accomplishing their God given rights. We have been given the right to do anything, including making the wrong choices. That is God’s place to make the final judgement, not me.

                There are plenty of Jewish scholars who believe the opposite. There was also someone explaining the Plagues of Egypt…so, really, there are two sides to every turn of the coin.

                Funny, you have heard of the Constitution? It protects the rights to me that were not given to the government specifically. Even though it is being eroded and rights taken from us, people are fighting back. So much so that at some point in time, there will be another war on this soil. Rights (unalienable) have been acknowledged as far back as the Magna Carta and earlier. You cannot mandate morales nor can you mandate subservience without some sort of repercussion.

                I would be fine with letting God handle it all, there are far too many holy rolling aristocrats thinking that they can do whatever they want…Westboro Baptist Church to be just one example. Many of them thinking they are doing God’s work, but are so steeped in the Old Testament styled bible bashing. Jesus changed that, but some did not seem to get the memo of LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF part!

                I agree with your assessment on the placebo effect; however, how does it harm you if I believe there to be an All Powerful God behind me and my beliefs? It does not affect you in the least, I am certain!

                I do like both scientific and religious answers, some clash and some mesh. There are many religious nutjobs out there just as there are a great amount of BS science. There are problems on both sides of the fence, God gave us brains to use, some do not use theirs outside of an agenda, hmmmmmm… I have no problems dealing with those who do not believe as I do, we often get into big discussions over such things. They don’t denigrate me nor I them…we are always friends! Not all friends agree on everything 100% of the time, but friends are friends!

                You say I am not eager to learn the facts as you know them…then what was the purpose of this discussion? Folly on my part? We both seek to learn, that is plainly obvious. But to say such a thing is…almost denigrating to the spirit of this conversation we have been holding. hmmmmmmmmm..? I would like to think we have held a very cordial conversation with out attacking the other’s position to such an extent that we are enemies, by any stretch of the imagination. But rather we are compadres on a journey…Until the next time we meet!

                • Brother Murf,

                  I’ll try to be a bit brief
                  “”… God could have used another animal, a piece of fruit, a tree, or a bush…I would suggest you ask God.””
                  It’s interesting that you say god used a snake in the garden. An act of god, not satan alone. The two are one and the same. The premise of the test is merely a device to justify eternal torture imo, and a fulcrum from which to demand tribute. It was in the garden that god defined humans as unworthy – the creation of a perfect god, worthy of nothing but eternal torment unless they pay ceaseless tribute to him. A bit narcisistic, really.

                  The discussion of the initial actualization of existence is one we can’t know the answer to. You can claim a god did it but have no proof. In every other instance where god was claimed as the cause, we have found that nature does all the hard work and god seems to have nothing to do with it. It is unlikely that a god is required for existence given our findings so far.

                  I too search, not for the one true god but for the truth, whatever it might be. When the answers spew out in front of us I do not work to figure out how god used that, rather I look at the evidence and work to figure out what is most likely and how to test such a theory.

                  “”I agree with you of your defined belief of an argument of ignorance; however, all of the evidence out there that I am aware of and have either studied, read, skimmed, or even discussed with other, IMO, my God fits and answers the questions, not all of the question that are out there, but all the questions that I have.””
                  In this case, perhaps you are happy with 2+2=5 and don’t want to question that. Truth answers the questions, not just some of them. Seeking truth is to seek all the answers, not just the questions we are most concerned with. Yes, that implies a lot. The major activity of humanity should be to seek truth.

                  I find that the day to day belief in a god is not much different than a believer calling the voice of consciousness in their head a ‘god’ and not knowing any better.
                  when they act on that bad things can happen: bigotry, mysogeny, and other evils. I don’t much care what anyone believes when they lay their head on their pillow at night. It is how they act in the public sphere that I care about. Delusional beliefs (if yours are true beliefs, then many other people in the world are self-delusioned in thinking they know the one true god) are dangerous to society. All monotheistic beliefs demand the adherents spread the word and generally encourage if not demand theocracy. This is dangerous because it does not allow for change or progress in governance of humanity.

                  If you spend a bit of time on my blog you’ll see that I do not believe in body/mind duality. I cannot justify that belief within the knowledge available to all of us as humans. As for the message in the bible? There are some pretty objectionable stories in there that would not be fit for prime time television. The concept of hell is just one of them. If you’re just talking about the good and warm/fuzzy parts you can get that from many places without the bad parts. Humanists are like the warm/fuzzy parts of the bible as I know them. you should check their outlook on life and what it means to be a good human.

                  It is comforting to hear you say that though you would judge, you would not prevent same sex marriage or women having control of their reproductive rights.
                  I am hopeful that you might begin taking a closer look at evidence as it is discovered. The lack of evidence for the exodus is but one example.

                  It does harm people to believe in superstition, whether it helps them recover from illness or not. It leads down the garden path of acting on the wrong belief in other areas of their lives, like praying for god to heal pneumonia in a child of 2 and not going to the doctor. That is but one example. When humans believe in divine right or imperatives they can and will do atrocious things against other humans. Belief does not make them vile humans, it justifies their actions where not having that belief would remove the justification and such actions would clearly be seen as vile acts. their actions, grand or small, affect the rest of society and in turn affect me. Consider the simple act of teaching creationism – it stops enquiry because no need to investigate as we know god did it… or so it goes. Beliefs in themselves are not harmful but acting on those beliefs is and it is not in the character of humans to not act on their beliefs.

                  “”You say I am not eager to learn the facts as you know them…then what was the purpose of this discussion? Folly on my part?””
                  Point well made.

                  I hope you feel no animosity from me. Happy holidays!
                  MAL

                  • I feel no animosity toward you, my friend! I enjoy the dialogue & discussion. It gets me to either re-think, re-assess, or strengthens my personal position.

                    As far as the two being only one, you may consider the basis for my words…the book of Job. Narcissism, perhaps where we received the term “God Complex.”

                    There are a great many of things that were attributed to God and may not have been so; there are a great many things debated upon such as the rules of physics. Could it not be that God placed them in such a way for man to discover and when happenings defied them we could know it was, in-fact, God?

                    Sometimes the evidence is there staring us in the face, but we refuse to acknowledge it. A magnificent sunrise, or sunset, or just the inner workings of the eye in order to allow your brain to comprehend such beauty & magnificence. Each works specifically in a certain manner. You can explain each and how they handshake to one another, but how did it come into being/existence? I don’t believe it happened by happenstance. Even the handshaking between computers, or a network of computers, occurs through a thoughtful carefully planned process. Inferred circumstantial evidence from casual observance and study.

                    You mean 2+2 doesn’t = 5 !@&$? WOW! I am stunned! lol I truly believe God answers ALL questions sufficiently. You imply that I don’t research, read, or seek anything outside of God. hmmmmmm…I have read a a word, or two, outside of the bible. And yes I do seek the truth, believe it or not. All the questions will be answered in time, the more pressing questions are just that and must be answered sooner.

                    Many people receive their morals from God, their beliefs in God, the religious teachings, etc. These are not dangerous to society, but enhance society. The true danger to society is the loss of family values, a tyrannical government usurping authority to create the appearance they are the answer to lacking parents. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that there a great number of delusional people out there; some forcing their mind on others, which leads to the numerous attacks on the traditions of the day to be halted by court order. People’s beliefs being attacked, by all sides using the so-called “separation of church & state” which has been misconstrued, misinterpreted, & misapplied. But I digress from the primary debate. The beauty of it all is that man need not be governed, but rather the day-to-day occurrences of the government; man can govern himself excepting in cases he has given that authority to the government by choice to do so for him. Our founding fathers had it right, not perfect, but they created a method to correct their mistakes that did not work in future generations.

                    There are studies, medical/science, which in-fact determine that the functions of the body are run electrically (hence, shock therapy, shocking heart into rhythm, etc.) which could be that part of the person considered to be the spirit. One of most basic laws of science is the Law of the Conservation of Energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another. The universe absorbs the energy (or spirit) from the person who dies. Their body is absorbed by the ground. Can neither be proven or disproven, but still based upon science & the tenets of my beliefs.

                    Sadly, people do atrocious things against their fellow man because they believe themselves better than them. Not just because of religion or the belief in a deity…consider Hitler, he passed himself off as a god of sorts. God works through other people as well; Doctors, etc.

                    I am a firm believer that both Evolution & Intelligent Design should both be taught in school. Both, from a pragmatic standpoint, are theories. Neither is provable, beyond a reasonable doubt nor by a preponderance of the evidence. Neither can be successfully accomplished in a laboratory. Hence, both should be taught. Kids go to school in order to learn to use their minds (not learn how to do what they are told to be a good drone), give them both theories they can choose by themselves.

                    You and I are not to different, despite our individual beliefs. We debate and discuss our beliefs…without the personal attacks, such a refreshing thought. (Of course, a dig or two here and there with the added benefit of skin thickness is quite alright! :P)

  2. The end is pre-ordained, that is true.

    The normal day to day things you will always have a free will about. Without the free will how will you either go to Heaven or Hell?

    • That was my point preacher.

      Good to see you back here.

      How can yhwh’s actions be predestined but yours not be? How can the punishments of satan be predestined but those of humans not be? If a god who is omnipotent has his actions predestined, how then can yours be the act of free will?

  3. Every moment I hear people talk about freewill, am interested in knowing what they mean and if they think their god has free will

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